Michael Bungay Stanier with Steven Morris

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Elevate Your Business with Soulful Pragmatism

A Conversation with Michael Bungay Stenier In this episode of the Beautiful Business Podcast, host Steven Morris sits down with renowned author and leadership expert Michael Bungay Stenier for a thought-provoking discussion on how to infuse creativity, vitality, and human connection into the world of work. Key Takeaways:

1. Unweaving Complexity: Michael shares his journey from an unconventional childhood to becoming a bestselling author, known for his ability to distill complex ideas into practical, engaging frameworks like “The Coaching Habit” and “How to Work with Almost Anyone.”
2. Relationship-Driven Success: Michael emphasizes the importance of building the “best possible relationship” with key stakeholders, outlining a powerful approach to have “keystone conversations” that set the stage for psychological safety, vitality, and repairability in workplace dynamics.
3. Navigating Dysfunction: Exploring the “Drama Triangle” of victim, persecutor, and rescuer roles, Michael provides insights on how to cultivate self-awareness and curiosity to manage these common relationship pitfalls and create the conditions for true collaboration.
4. Defining Success on Your Own Terms: For aspiring professionals, Michael offers wisdom on the importance of continuously redefining what “success” means to you, and pursuing work that is thrilling, important, and daunting – challenging you to grow in service of a greater purpose.

Whether you’re a seasoned leader or just starting your business journey, this conversation with Michael Bungay Stenier is sure to inspire you to elevate your work with a touch of soul and pragmatic brilliance.

Michael Bungay Stanier

Michael Bungay Stanier, a teacher, facilitator, and writer, discusses his journey and work on the Beautiful Business Podcast. He emphasizes the importance of curiosity, courage, and human connection in leadership. His best-known book, “The Coaching Habit,” has sold over 1.3 million copies, and his latest, “How to Work with Almost Anyone,” focuses on building strong work relationships.

Stanier highlights the significance of having keystone conversations to understand and improve working relationships. He also touches on the Drama Triangle model, which identifies roles in dysfunctional relationships, and advises aspiring professionals to seek work that is thrilling, important, and daunting.

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Steven Morris

Steven Morris is an expert brand and culture builder, advisor, author, and speaker. He has worked with 300+ brands including Samsung, Sony, Habitat for Humanity, Amazon, International Trademark Association, NFL, and MLB. Over his 27 years as an entrepreneur, he’s served more than 3,000 global business leaders.

His new book is entitled The Beautiful Business: An Actionable Manifesto to Create an Unignorable Business with Love at the Core has been dubbed as “The artist’s way for business leaders.”

He reaches 25,000+ readers through his blog and writes about branding, culture, leadership, and the intersection between work and life as a contributing writer for Retail Observer, Wisdom Well, Business Week, Brand Week, Conscious Company Magazine, Communication Arts, HOW Magazine and MarketingProfs.

When he is not supporting leaders in building beautiful brands and businesses, Steven explores his wholehearted participation with life as a husband, father, artist, surfer, motorcyclist, and beekeeper.

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Podcast Transcript

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  00:02

Welcome to the beautiful Business Podcast. I’m Steven Morris, a brand and culture building expert, speaker and author of the beautiful business I’m here to lead you on a journey into the art of flourishing in both business and life. Each episode, I share insights and tap into the wisdom of intriguing minds to explore how creative thinking and vitality can transform the way that we work and live. If you’re ready to elevate your own business journey with a touch of soul and beauty, you’re in the right place. Well, hey, Michael, welcome so great to see you,

Michael Bungay Stenier  00:39

Steven. Thank you for having me on the show. I’m excited. I think it’s going to be a juicy conversation. So I’m excited to plunge in same

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  00:46

here, same here. So you’re,

00:48

I’ve shared your professional bio. People understand, you know, your sort of professional background. But for you and I, let’s just pretend we’re at some type of barbecue or, you know, I would call it maybe a friends and family gathering at dinner party, whatever. How would you describe the work you do, typically, and your journey to come into this work?

Michael Bungay Stenier  01:13

I always try and avoid those conversations. Hard to pin it down, I’d probably say, Hey, can I get you another Margarita and try and change the topic? But I’m probably best thought of as a teacher and a facilitator and a writer, so my job is to help people stay curious, help people see how things work, and help people have the courage to try new things. And I have a particular focus in helping managers and leaders kind of bring the the human connection into that work. So, you know, the best known book I’ve written is the Coaching Habit, and that sold a a bunch load, and is kind of the go to book on coaching, particularly for people who aren’t coaches, who are like, well, what is this coaching stuff. I have to figure it out. How do I do it if I’m a normal person rather than a coach? And the latest book, how to work with almost anyone is similar in that. It’s about, how do you build adult relationships in the workplace so that both of you can do better and have more impact?

Excellent, excellent. And how did you I’m curious how you came to this work. And maybe, like, I’m going to ask a very oddball question, is, there was there a point in, let’s say, your childhood, or a specific memory from your childhood where you were like, oh, you know, this is the work that I want to do. And I can’t imagine it was I want to teach people how to coach who are at five years old. But is there a memory that comes up around that

Michael Bungay Stenier  02:49

not so much from the childhood like I had? You know, I grew up in Australia, and I was lucky. I had a great family, I great parents. I had a happy childhood. I liked school, I liked sport. I had friends. I had a pretty gentle, kindly life. Um, I’ve always had an inclination to be to wanting to be center of the stage like I don’t remember this, but my mom tells the story of me going up to strangers when I’m three years old in the supermarket, going, Hi, my name is Michael, and I can hop. Would you like to see me hop? And honestly, in some ways, that is still what I do. I’m just more I’m more expensive, and my hopping is slightly more sophisticated, but it’s broadly, broadly the same. But you know, in many ways, part of the deeper project. What I’m trying to do is kind of disrupt power and disrupt hierarchy, because I think adult relationships flourish when there’s less of that or what’s happening is more explicitly understood. So having started a childhood going, Look, I want to be on the spotlight and then doing things like, amongst other things, becoming a Rhodes Scholar. So that’s kind of being anointed and being in the spotlight and being handed keys to the kingdom sort of stuff. Part of it now is going look as a man who has a lot of the tools of power and success and privilege. How do I use those in a way to kind of get out of the spotlight, to allow other people to kind of take the place and step into that. So, you know, the part, I mean, there’s a great saying, which is, like, inspiration is when your past suddenly makes sense, you know? Because, like, none of this, none of this is a plan, all of this was me stumbling into the future, but there are a couple of kind of key cross road moments, the first one being me applying to be a Rhodes Scholar, getting rejected, failing to make, even make the first round of that, and then deciding two years later to give it another shot, and this time winning the Rhodes. Scholarship, which did two amazing things for me. First of all, I met my wife, Marcelo, in at Oxford, and you know, we’ve been Thank you. We’ve been a couple for 30-31, years now. So that was great. Secondly, it stopped me becoming a lawyer. Because I was doing a law degree in Australia, I was actually being sued by one of my professors for defamation, so it wasn’t going well as a law degree. But you know, momentum will carry you on, and you’re like, I would have become an unhappy and unsuccessful lawyer. So it saved me from that. Then the second crossroad was when I finally did stagger out of university my first job, I thought about like, McKinsey, because I love hiring Rhodes Scholars. And I was like, Man, I don’t think that’s a good fit for me. And I tried to apply for a bunch of other places, and none of them took me. But I finally found a small agency, an innovation creativity agency, and kind of like, this is early 90s, I guess. So nobody quite knew what innovation was then. It was a very new discipline, but they liked my oddness, and so I showed up, and I’ve got earrings, I’ve got long hair, and I made my own clothes, and they’re like, you’re bizarre, but you’re smart, and we can play with that. So there’s something there about wanting to zag when others Zig, and wanting to kind of be different, and kind of find a point of difference around that. And then after time there where I contributed, in small ways to projects such as a single malt whiskey, which we invented, which has been called the worst single malt whiskey ever invented, and stuffed crust pizza. I was like, those are legacies I’m particularly proud of.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  06:46

So I almost said, Congratulations. But you know…

Michael Bungay Stenier  06:48

I mean, I like one hand, like stuff across pizza, I actually did a little thing about that. The other hand, I’m like, if that is the highlight of my career, it’s a pretty disappointing career. And then the next kind of crossroads, really was having gone through a couple of other jobs and roles in change management consulting and moving to the States. I put my job in the States, and my wife and I decided to move to Canada, I got a job lined up, and our flight out of Boston to Toronto was on 911 and so all sorts of things happened. One of the minor things that happened was my job disappeared. So out of necessity, I started my own business, because it became apparent to me in my mid 30s, I was mostly unemployable, like I just wasn’t that good at having bosses telling me what to do. Kind of this piece around the power and the hierarchy I’m like, you know, just because you’re a level up from me doesn’t make you better than me, just means that you’ve got a different responsibilities and so and then probably the next key crossroad was I’d written a few books, but then I wrote the Coaching Habit, and spent three years trying to get up my company that had published other books of mine to publish it again, and they kept turning it down, and I was quite demoralized about that, but on the on the seventh rejection, I was like, Okay, I’m done with trying to make them like it. What do I do with this? And I decided to self publish it. So I self published the Coaching Habit, and it’s now sold 1.3 million copies or thereabouts, which kind of accelerated the business I had Box of Crayons, which is teaching practical coaching skills to people in big companies, um, and kind of oriented me towards thinking that writing and creating tools like that is kind of key part of how I best serve the world.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  08:58

So I’m curious about the chicken and egg of the box of crayons and the Coaching Habit. Like, like, take me through the formulation of the thinking or the application of it did Box of Crayons through the practice of that and the training programs within it inform the Coaching Habit, or vice versa.

Michael Bungay Stenier  09:21

The box you crayon started in 19 in 2002 shortly after me getting fired from my last job in in Canada, and then going, Okay, I have to do my own thing now. And when it started, unlike normal entrepreneurs who have a plan, I was like, I’m just trying to find somebody with a pulse and a wallet. Actually, I don’t even care about the polls. I just want people with a wallet and maybe I can sell I’ve got a grab bag of skills, facilitation, market research, change management, innovate. I can do a bunch of things. I didn’t have a plan. I didn’t have a point of view, really. But in the first. Four or five years, I got asked to design a coaching program for a client, and I was like, oh, there’s something here that feels important and useful. And, you know, it’s that good guy overlap, which is like, look, this is something I’m skillful at. I’m good at designing stuff. It’s something I feel something about, because I’m like, the way, the way people in organizations are taught how to be coaches, sucks, and it’s like, it’s terrible. And I’ve got a point of view around how it needs to be different, you know, I’ve got a point of view of how to unweared coaching and make it fit a busy leader’s life, rather than just going, Hey, do do life coaching training, and that would work the same, because it won’t. And I thought there was a market for it, like, I think I can sell this. And so I’d spent the coaching have a book was, in part, the culmination of six or seven years of training skills. And so part of the reason the book is successful is it’s elegant and lean, you know, there’s like, there’s barely a wasted word in it. It’s a short book. My goal is always, what’s the shortest book I can write that’s most useful? And it’s been polished through, you know, seven years, market research basically around what, what works, what doesn’t work, what’s helpful, what’s less helpful.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  11:20

Have you get to, I’m so curious, as a writer myself, how do you get to the distillment of the what I would consider pretty fierce pragmatism within your work, within your within your books, especially, and the you know, the very clear language that you use to articulate a theory or concept or even practice.

Michael Bungay Stenier  11:44

Well, thank you for saying that some of it is just, mostly it’s just writing a whole bunch of bad words to get to good words. It’s like as miserable as that. I mean, I get asked all the time by people, should I write a book? And I’m like, you almost certainly you should not write a book because it’s long and it’s hard and it’s painful, and the odds are almost nobody will read it, and the odds are won’t be very good. It’s like, it is hard to write a really good book, and it just takes lots and lots and lots of rewriting and abandonment. I mean, I probably write over 100,000 words per book, of which about 20,000 make it into the book. Those are awful lot of detritus, and it’s the working and the reworking. So I work and rework two things. First of all, I try and figure out this shape of the book. So I’m like, How do I get people from here to here? How do I keep people reading? How do I keep people I mean, my goal is to get people to read the whole book. How do I get them to the end of the book? What’s the single idea that’s at the heart of this book? So if I can explain in a single sentence what the book is about in a single breath, then I know I’ve got something because that. And then I’ve got two things that I’m just kind of more inclined towards. One is metaphorical writing, like, I mean, I have a master’s degree in literature, so I love good writing, so I aspire to that. And secondly, my book, unlike I think many business books, is like, it’s about pragmatism. I’m like, I’m trying to give you tools. You know, it drives a woman Shannon, who runs Box of Crayons now, it drives her nuts at the Coaching Habit is so such a good training tool, because she’s trying to sell training. And people are like, I don’t really need your training. Some people because they’re like, because I we can, we can figure it out from the book. And I’m like, that is great for the spreading of the book. It’s less good for her, responsible for her P and L, but it’s a trade off that I’m willing to make.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  14:02

Yeah, yeah, very good. Yeah. It’s you’re writing. I’m continuing. I continue to be impressed by how you distill your ideas and keep people engaged, not just with the concepts, but with the wit that’s within them, like the I really feel like, you know, because you and I have had a couple conversations, your personality and your way, your curious way of seeing the world comes through in the books itself. And I think that’s quite a it’s quite a gift to be able to, you know, find that voice as a writer, but also, you know, do that in such a way that continues to carry the fierce pragmatism behind it. Yeah,

Michael Bungay Stenier  14:41

and, you know, I’ve been writing a newsletter pretty consistently for almost 30 years. So I’ve just, you know, it’s one of those things where you the you start off not really having a voice or having a kind of scattered sense of self, and then you’re like, Okay, I’m getting a sense of, this is the way I. I write in a way that is true to me and helpful to people who are reading it, then of course, you’re going to not become a parody of yourself, like, how do I how do I keep it fresh? How do I keep myself growing and learning? But I am always trying to find simplicity on the other side of complexity. I’m always trying to bring a lightness and a sense of humor to it, and I’m trying to make it as if, this is the, this is, I mean, I love it when people go, you show up as if, as you are in your book, that’s great. That’s, that’s what I was going for. Yeah,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  15:35

very good. Very good. All right, let’s shift, shift focus here a little bit, and begin to talk about how to work with almost anyone. What was this? Isn’t

Michael Bungay Stenier  15:45

it a good isn’t it a good title? Best book title I’ve ever come up with? I’m like, Man, that is

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  15:51

it is the almost that I just absolutely love. Because here again comes the fierce pragmatism, like, let’s be realistic, we’re not going to be able to work with anyone, yeah, anywhere, right? So it’s really great. Yeah,

Michael Bungay Stenier  16:06

I’m very skeptical of the over promise. Yeah. And, you know, in the, in the thought leader guru space, I’m doing air quotes up the top here, there’s a lot of over promising, yeah? And I’m like, you know, I’m Australian. British dad. So I come from a place where there’s always a dryness and an irony and a sense of humor to it, but yeah, when I came up with that title, I’m like, Oh, that is so good, because everybody laughs, and everybody laughs when they see the title, because they’re like, oh yeah, that’s exactly right. I do need to work with people that some people impossible. Yeah,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  16:45

so what, what was, was there an incident, a moment that sparked the idea behind the book? Well,

Michael Bungay Stenier  16:54

I tend to live a project based life, so I try and pick the project that I think best serves my happiness and also the impact I want to make in the world, and I’ll work at it until it’s done. And then I come to this moment where I’m and then I have a little moment where I feel depressed and kind of out of sorts, and like, what’s the point of it all? And you know, I’ve now done it enough times to go. It always happens. They always get into that, like slight slew of despond after the launch of something, and then at a certain point I’ll kind of get my mojo back, and I’m like, well, what’s the next best thing that I could do? Of all the things I could do, what’s the next best thing? Because I’ve got ideas for books. I wrote ideas for courses. I could do a thing over here, all sorts of ideas. So I’m sitting there going, if I if I had to write about something, what would I write about? And the success of the Coaching Habit comes because I think it unweared coaching for normal people. You know, one of my favorite reactions to that book is when people read it and go, Oh, if this is what you’re talking about, I could probably do this. I could probably give it a go. And I thought, and I realized that actually, that’s one of my gifts, which is like to try and create this unweighting of concepts. And one of the really important things that’s been discovered or kind of talked about in the last 10 or more years is this idea of psychological safety. Amy Edmondson really popularized it with her books, and she’s been kind of going on about it for 20 years just as a new book out, which is great. And you know, when you say, you know psychological safety, everybody nod their head and goes exactly, yeah, we need psychological safety. And then I go, and how do you do that? They’re like, I don’t know. I think you just be nice. Like, there’s nothing wrong with being nice, kind or generous, but that’s that’s not it. So I realized that 30 years a writer and really a mentor to me, a guy called Peter block had, I was in Boston, I think, and he’d done something on what he called Social contracting, and it was profound. And effectively, what I’m what I’m trying to redo, is recast social contracting in a way that feels more accessible to people, and the idea at the heart of how to work with almost anyone is our happiness and our success is really driven by our working relationships. And most of us just cross our fingers and hope for the best. We’re like, I hope this one doesn’t suck. If I’m really lucky, this is great, but you know, you roll the dice, you take your chances, and the goal is, how do I build the best possible relationship with the key people with whom I work? Maybe your team, maybe your boss, maybe a client or a customer, maybe a vendor, maybe a collaborator or a peer. You. Got people who influence your success and your happiness. If you can build the best possible relationship with them, then you’ll have more happiness and more success. And best possible relationship is is a helpful phrase, because it’s not the best relationship because, you know, it’s going to be a mixed bag. Your your relationships come on a bell curve. But each relationship has potential, and your job is to kind of like span the potential and fulfill the potential as best you can. So you can make the bad ones suck less. You can make the great ones sparkle more. You can make the okay ones in the middle kind of nudge their way towards being even better, and then this is kind of my what Peter block taught me, and kind of my version of it, which is the key tactic at the heart of this book, is have a conversation about how you work together before you start working together. Simple and difficult, but I’ve been doing that for 30 years, since Peter block taught me that with my clients, with my vendors, with my customers, I’m like, How can I be the best version of me? So our relationship is the best version of this relationship for you and for me, and it just feels like a really powerful and under utilized tool. And as I wrote it, I realized what this is doing is it’s making a practical way to actually build psychological safety in the work that you do. It’s

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  21:27

very interesting. We live in a society, especially in a work society, or work cultures, that things this desire for immediacy, like, let’s get it done now. Let’s just get to work and get busy with things. Part of what I hear you saying is that, you know, before we dive into that, whatever that work is, you know, the teamwork or the, you know, I’m accepted a job or whatever, let’s pause for just a moment and at least have some type of conversation around what it means to work together and what that would look like, ideally, from your perspective and my perspective,

Michael Bungay Stenier  22:02

that’s right. And we are always, always inclined to jump into the the work, because it’s there and it’s exciting and it’s important and it’s urgent and it’s or it’s just the thing that you want to talk about, and you’ve had five or 10 or 40 years practice of just cracking on with it, and you know, you and I are a perfect example of that. Because in a perfect world, if I’d been smart enough, I’d have said, Hey, Steven, before we jump into this, before you hit record. Tell me what it means to be a really brilliant guest for you. Like, what is it? What are your best guess, what do they do and not do that really make them outstanding? And I could have also said, and Steven, let me tell you about the podcast, which I love. I’ve been on hundreds and hundreds of podcasts now, and so I’ve had the full experience from people who like, I don’t know who you are, I don’t know why I’m talking to you, and I’m going to ask you questions that have nothing to do with anything you’ve ever done in your life. I’ve had that experience, no doubt, yeah, and I’ve had other podcast hosts where I’m like, Man, you really get it. You asked me great questions. You made me look like a superstar. And I could have told you some of that, but we got seduced by the work. We’re like, let’s talk about the mechanics and the recording and the audio setup and what we’re going to talk about. And you gave me a brief one who listens to this, and all of that was great, but you and I didn’t know. How do we make each other shine in this? Okay, if we’ve done that,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  23:34

let’s correct that. Let’s play with that right now. I’m totally going to play with that right now.

Michael Bungay Stenier  23:40

So, so let me know. You know, when you think about the best version of a guest, somebody like me, but they’re like, man, they they shone on this podcast. What do they do and not do say and not say that made it so effective. Do you think, yeah,

23:55

well, what did they do? I think my first perspective on that is they show up as a whole person, authentic and open to go wherever the conversation goes. Right the flip side of that, the the other side of that coin is they don’t come in with a set of preconceived notes in front of them that says, this is going to be the typical elevator pitch. I’m pitching a book. And indeed cover this, this, this and this right to make sure that I mentioned my wife and my publisher and all that kind of stuff, and they’re going through really a checkbox,

Michael Bungay Stenier  24:25

right? They’re on message and boring as a result. Yeah.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  24:29

And I think the beauty of the because we’re showing up as real, full human beings talking about the work that we do at hand, is it serves the audience in such a way that they actually feel like they’re just dipping into a conversation of two intelligent, caring, well respected, experienced people talking about what it is that they do as an act of service and generosity.

Michael Bungay Stenier  24:56

And what advice would you give me based on, you know, what we’ve. Talked about how I’ve shown up so far to get closer to that ideal for you,

25:04

I would give you the advice that let’s keep going with the things that spark your curiosity, because I suspect the things that spark your curiosity are similar to the things that spark mine. And people are going to be interested in that. And we all have curiosities, and those folks that are listening to this conversation were, in a way, modeling how to follow their own path of curiosity,

Michael Bungay Stenier  25:28

right, exactly. And if I was to play back to you, kind of what makes for a great host, my least favorite hosts are the ones where they’ve got a list of questions and they just walk through the list of questions. It doesn’t matter what I’ve said previously. They’re like, you know, I’m now setting myself on fire. And they’re like, Okay, great. My next question is, I’m like, I’m like, Oh man, be in the moment with me. But you know what you just did then, which is, like, Okay, let’s stop this. Let’s actually do this live. I get really animated by that, because it feels like a way that allows me to be entertaining, but also to teach, and also is an encouragement to kind of not be on message and on script, because almost everything I’ve said so far, I have said before, so none of this is kind of this is the first time that it’s occurring to me, but I probably haven’t said it in this combination in response to this sort of question, and that freshness allows me to kind of be more present and hopefully be a more helpful guest on the show as well. Yeah,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  26:36

very good. And what else could I be doing to set the stage for the best, most vital conversation that you’re going to take with you through the rest of your day.

Michael Bungay Stenier  26:51

Well, I I here’s an idea this may or may not land, but I think it’s quite interesting when a host goes, let me challenge you on this. Dot. Dot. Dot. Because often in a podcast conversation, it’s two people violently agreeing with each other, and you and I are mostly going to violently agree with each other, because we because A, you’ve read my stuff and you like it, and B, I know a little bit about your work and I like it. So we’ve got a kind of simpatico in terms of what we think matters. And the danger in that is we just get overly excited and we’re like, No, I’m awesome. No, you’re awesome. No, we’re awesome. And it gets a little bit like that, yeah, whereas there’s a way to have respect for kind of Yeah. Is that true? Is that? Let me challenge you that. How do you know that’s happening? Kind of like pushing, a little probing, a little more being a little bit skeptical, that can be quite interesting. Yeah,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  28:00

I actually do have a twin just skepticism. So we’re going to get a little bit into the book here. So So you have in the book, you have these five questions, which you which you call critical questions, you guide leaders through. And so before we get into my skepticism, could you just overview the five questions? Sure.

Michael Bungay Stenier  28:24

So if the key in, if the key problem we’re trying to solve is, how do I build the best possible relationship? First of all, you need to know what you’re aspiring to. And I think there are three qualities to that you want it to be safe and vital and repairable. And safe is psychological safety, vital is psychological bravery. You know? Can you push? Can you challenge? Can you step into ambiguity and uncertainty? Can you risk? Because if a relationship is only safe for many people, that’s just a bit boring and a bit smothering, and then repairability, which is the thing that people are typically least good at is it is a dead set guarantee that somewhere down the line the fabric rips a little bit, you know, something gets dented or cracked or bent or broken, and the ability to fix that and repair the relationship, rather than what many of us do, which is like some version of Fight or Flight, a little amygdala in our brain that gives a chance for the relationship, not just to get back on track, but in some ways, to actually strengthen. It’s part of that. So BPR, best possible relationship, say, vital and repairable. So how do you get there? Well, the key I tactic is you have this Keystone conversation, a conversation about how you work together rather than what you’re working on. And you’re right in the book, I suggest these five questions to ask and answer as a way of sharing with the other person. Let me tell you about who I am and what makes me tick and what makes me kind of quick. She’s. So I can give you the very best chance of working well with me, and I can give you the very best chance of working or vice versa. We can give each other the best chance of working together, and we give each other the best chance of creating a relationship that is really making a difference having success and also bringing some degree of happiness with it. Yeah. Very good,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  30:20

very good. So my skepticism falls into two categories, one of which we’ve already very lightly touched on, which is the speed at which we work or move to the world of work, and the courage conviction and even the value perspective that a leader might say, You know what? I know how to do business. I know how to work with people. Why should I even slow down to have these conversations? Yeah,

Michael Bungay Stenier  30:54

well, I’ve got some answers to that. But you know what? Let me, let me ask you, what’s the case you would make? You know, if a leader came to you and went, look, I’m just going to get the work done, why would I bother too much about the working relationships? I’m just, I’m just task management here. How would you make the case for the power of building relationships?

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  31:19

Well, what I would say is that part of leadership, I think two critical parts of leadership is one of which is a leader creates the conditions for the team to succeed, and they hold a vision for what success looks like, and they articulate that vision so, so if part of leadership is to create the conditions where the team is supposed to succeed, we have to define what those conditions are. And if we don’t define what those conditions are, then how do we expect it to succeed? So that’s the case that I would

Michael Bungay Stenier  31:53

make. Yeah. I would say, look, work happens through people, and if your people feel safer. So they get to say what’s working and not working, and they get to bring the kind of their full panoply of skills and personality, and if they feel braver, so they’re willing to risk more and do more and challenge more. And if you’re able to repair things when they get damaged, so people stay engaged with you, you’re more likely to have the best version of that person working for you and doing the work that’s required. And strategy is the task, is the work that needs to be done, but culture is really like, Have I got the best people being their best self doing the work? And if you think your job is just to worry about the strategy. You just don’t get culture. And, you know, people say culture eats strategy for breakfast, and I never quite understood that, because I feel like it’s a mobius strip. You know, culture leads to strategy. Leads to culture leads to strategy. They’re the same, but it’s like, if you really got a great strategy, why wouldn’t you do all you can to create the conditions that allow the best people to bring their very best, do their best work, to deliver on the stuff that you’ve all decided is the most important work, because if you got that going, you’re probably having Some degree of success. Yeah,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  33:18

yeah. Love that my second, let’s just call it skepticism. Area is, you know, there’s a world of people in that work, in businesses and organizations that are not necessarily connected to their core purpose. So let’s just say they’re,

Michael Bungay Stenier  33:41

that’s a polite way, I would say, phoning

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  33:42

it in. But they’re showing up in their primary intention within this which is nothing wrong with that is the paycheck and trying to make a living. So and they may not be able to answer the question, you know, what are the conditions in which I will thrive in a world of work or in this business environment, or how do I like to be managed? Or any version of those questions, how do we address those types of things? Or how would a leader address those types of things?

Michael Bungay Stenier  34:09

Yeah, you’re gonna get, you’re gonna get a mix. You know, some people have spent a bunch of time building their own degree of self awareness and emotional intelligence and all that, and some people haven’t. So I think there’s two answers to that. The first is in the book itself, if I’m honest, in some ways, it’s a self help book wrapped in a business book, because there are five questions that I say, ask and answer these and each question has three exercises attached to it, so that you can develop your vocabulary and your insight and your nuance and your and your granularity, so that you can be more articulate about who you are and how you work, so that there’s the workers you know Know thyself, which is like the more you can say. Let me tell you what makes me tick. Let me tell you what drives me crazy. Let me tell you. What it means for you to get me at my best. Let me tell you what I Well, the difference is between what I’m good at and what I’m fulfilled by. If there’s you know where that’s different and where that’s aligned, the more you’re able to do that, the more you’re able to not just show up as the best version of yourself, but champion the best version of yourself the second answer is, you do your best with the person who’s in front of you. So whatever level of awareness they’ve got, that’s the level of awareness you work with. And by having these conversations, you’re going to make them deep in their level of awareness, most of them anyway. Maybe some people are like, look, I don’t even know what this conversation is about. It’s weird and it’s awkward, and I’m just not going to even care about it. But the other thing that’s powerful about the Keystone conversation in the short term, for sure, it’s the answers that you get in the moment. So when you ask, you know, the good day question, what can we learn from past successful relationships? The bad day question, what can we learn from past frustrating relationships? You’re going to get some stuff in the in the immediacy, right there, but the more subtle win is ongoing permission to keep talking about the health of the relationship. So, you know, the second question of the five is this steady question, which is like, what are your practices and preferences? And honestly, you don’t have to have that much self awareness to say, look, this is how I like my name to be said. Like, I’m a classic, like, I’ve just, I just started a new gym, and the trainer is like, Hey, Mike. And I’m like, It’s not Mike, it’s Michael. And it’s never, it’s never Mike. And my surname is complicated. It’s like, Bungay Staniel. When I got married, my wife and I combine our names, and we didn’t add a hyphen, and it just, it freaks people out. You know, my company, my new company is incorporated as the banging spaniel Corporation, because I once got a letter addressed to Professor banging Spaniel, which was 100% wrong. I wasn’t a professor and I wasn’t the banging Spaniel, but, but I get to kind of explain to people on a very practical level. Look, I know you’re worried about my surname. Bunge is not my middle name, it’s my surname, and Michael is my first name, and my pronouns, whatever. It’s just a and I’m not that good at Slack, but I am better at kind of texting an email. And I’m a morning person. I’m not an evening person, and I can sometimes be a bottleneck on decision making. So here’s how to manage me when I’m bottlenecking the thing that’s just, uh, there’s, there’s some self awareness there, but there’s also just, like, this is just the practicalities of me,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  37:50

yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s very interesting, you know, when I think about, and part of what you’re talking about goes back into creating the conditions for psychological safety, right? Right? One of the things that I’ve noticed, and I do in the world of work that I do as a consultant in brand and culture and business strategy, is that in creating conditions for psychological safety, it happens on multiple levels. And so I’m curious, if like the here’s and here’s what I mean by multiple levels. So there’s the relational conditions for psychological safety, so that in any relationship, there’s the you, there’s the me, there’s the thing in between us that we call the relationship, which we both, in our own way, contribute to. Right? So we’re, we’re putting, you know, deposits and dividends into that, and we’re meeting that thing, and we both co create whatever that relationship is and what that is. But then there’s also the internal state that I own and that you own that would create those conditions, right? So that we know that in our society today, there’s a high degree of stress and all even called anxiety and even trauma. We’re still coming out, in my opinion, of the pandemic, and we haven’t really agreed a lot of issues around that. And so a lot of people are showing up in the workplace with this high degree of stress and anxiety, maybe even trauma, bringing it into the workplace. So how do we then help people to create a psychological, safe environment in their own somatic state. And part of what I’m sort of leaning into, and I’m getting training in this through the work of Peter Levine and somatic experiencing, which is a process that has to do with how do we work with our own stress and anxiety within our own physiological system, so that we’re not just showing up and pushing that on others. And then we can, then, once we do that in that powerful way, ideally, we can then contribute to the best relationship possible in that conditional area of relationship in the world of work,

Michael Bungay Stenier  39:58

a wonderful question. I. And I’ve got a few thoughts. So let me make some make up, start making up an answer and see if there’s anything helpful here. The first is to realize that to perhaps just have a conversation about, to what extent can I be responsible for the internal work and trauma processing and somatic kind of integration that another person needs to go through. And in some ways, that’s what you hope is that that’s work that that person figures out that they need to do, and they and they do the work. So I’m thinking, Well, what’s my role in that? Because I don’t want to be the rescuer trying to save them. I want to give them every opportunity to process that and become less less brittle. So I’m doing two things. First of all, I’m always asking, what’s on my side of the table, what am I responsible for, and what’s on their side of the table? And behind that question is the awareness of a model a tool called the Cartman Drama Triangle. Now, the Drama Triangle developed by Robert Taubman, is a way of understanding what happens when relationships become dysfunctional. It’s got its roots in a therapeutic model called transactional analysis ta which gives us language like adult to adult relationships and parent child relationships, which they don’t really work in a business context. I mean, it’s weird to go I think I have a parent child relationship with my boss. It might be true, but it’s like, you can’t, yeah, yeah. Quite possibly is because organizations love parent child relationships, they kind of push for that, but it’s hard to actually have that conversation with somebody at work, with them, not looking us scans. So the Drama Triangle is a way of making that dynamic one that’s more understandable in the context of work. And so it basically says this, when things get dysfunctional, and, you know, they always get dysfunctional, three basic roles play out. The first and the kind of the most fundamental role is the victim, you know. And you know what somebody looking and playing the victim role looks like? Oh, it’s so hard. It’s so not fair. This is, you know, the world’s against me. And there are, there are prizes and punishments to playing that role. I mean, the advantage you get is, like, people love to save a victim, so that, like, let me help, let me jump in, let me fix it. Let me give you my time and energy and focus. Let me take on all your work for you. But the fundamental price you pay is you are you are without power, you are without agency, and so you are stuck in that I can’t do anything. I’m just plot some and jetsam on the river of work. That’s the victim role. The second role is the persecutor role. So if the victim is kind of like hand against the brow, looking kind of like a damsel in distress. The persecutors more of that kind of finger waggling energy and presence. So this is obviously the shouty, bossy, you know, insulting person. More subtly, it’s the person who’s the micromanager. It’s kind of like the more therapy. Speak Now, if the victim is, I’m not okay, you’re okay. The persecutor is, I’m okay, you’re not okay. So prizes and punishments? Well, you get to feel superior to everybody. You get to take credit for when it’s working, and to point the finger of blame when it’s not because you’re surrounded by turkeys. But the price you pay is nobody wants to work for you, and also, it’s exhausting because you’re trying to control everything, so you end up doing a lot of other people’s work for them, because, you know, you’re surrounded by losers. And then the third role is the rescuer role, which sounds just a little bit better than the first two, but it’s just as dysfunctional. I mean, don’t be fooled by the labeling here and the rescuers. Let me jump in. Let me fix it. Let me solve it. Let’s not fight. Let me take it on. No conflict. You’re constantly kind of trying to make things better for everybody else, and there’s some great advantages to that. You know, mostly you feel like you’re the martyr. Oh, I’m so noble. Look at me doing all this work, and nobody really respects me or appreciates me. It’s also quite a controlling role, because you got your fingers on everybody else’s pies. But the price you pay is fundamental. I mean, it’s exhausting, but also, rescuers create victims and rescuers create persecutors. So it’s a tiny bit of teaching to go look when I’m working with somebody who feels, you know, brittle or with trauma or, you know, acting out in any way, whatever the driving motivation for it is, I’m going, how am I being sucked into the drama triangle here, and how do I get out of the Drama Triangle? And I’ve got some tactics around that. And curiosity is a fundamental tactic for moving that’s why I love the coaching questions. But also, and what’s my side of the table? You know? What? What am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? Rescuers in particular, love to take over the entire table. Let me I’m going to be responsible for everything, everything you’re doing and everything I’m doing, and that’s, that’s just a dysfunctional act.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  45:50

Yeah. Very good. Very good. Yeah.

Michael Bungay Stenier  45:53

Was that good? I mean, what landed for you in that

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  45:57

the clarity around the Drama Triangle and the roles that you well described that we see, you know, and I see in my work, people showing up to all the time, especially, you know, these things that tend to carry, you know, the rescuer role, for instance, a, you know, it almost in our society, is a celebrated badge of honor, like I, you know, like people put these things on their resume. I fixed this, I solved this, I rescued I did the diving catch to save this company from this doom and that thing. And I’m really proud of it, and that’s where I get my self identity from. And I’m going to continue doing that and hire me again for that. And the other side of that, which you well pointed out, is that particular role is actually, in a way, the worst, because it’s an instigator to create the conditions that continue within that. I

Michael Bungay Stenier  46:47

mean, all the roles trigger the other roles. So, you know, when you’re across the table from somebody with, you know, as you described it, those are sort of ways of like this. They’re not, they’re a bit broken, perhaps, or they’re brittle, or, however you might say it, there’s a way that that can trigger you. Yes, it can trigger you into the victim. It’s impossible working with this person there. So this, that and the other, it can trigger you into the persecutor. Look, I’m just going to lose my temper because this is pathetic. It can trigger into the rescue. Oh, no, don’t you. Don’t do anything. Just lie there and I’ll take it all on for you. And you know, there’s, there’s, there’s a also, just to say there’s a healthy way to be clear and directive, and there’s a healthy way to be helpful, and there’s a healthy way to kind of go. This is hard, and I feel stuck at the moment. It’s when they become your default roles. That’s when you’re you’re you want to figure out how to get out of that Drama Triangle as fast as you can. Yeah, very good. I

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  47:43

want to be conscious of time. We’re almost to the end of sorry.

Michael Bungay Stenier  47:46

We’ve got a lot. I’m talking too much. I’m sorry about that. Too much. I

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  47:50

could go on and on with this. I have many other curiosities,

47:54

so I want to shift gears here a little bit, though. So you’ve got this great quote, and in our last conversation, we touched on it briefly. It’s you have these principles that, from my perspective, assuming you put them out publicly, so they really are to some extent, driving your life forward. And it’s the end of a real K poem. I think it’s called the man watching and read the quotes. And I’ll just, I want to hear you riff on why it’s important. Winning does not tempt him. His growth is to be deeply defeated by ever

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  48:29

greater things. I

Michael Bungay Stenier  48:32

love that I love that. It’s such a wonderful poem because the rest of the poem it it sets up the scenario of a man wrestling with an angel. So like Jacob and the angel from the Bible, if that’s your your cup of tea. What I love about it is, he says, Look, first of all, you always lose when you’re wrestling with an angel. Nobody beats the angel. They’re angels for goodness sake. But then he says, But, you know, the angel doesn’t choose to wrestle with anyone. They only choose to wrestle with the people who are doing the stuff that matter. And there comes a time where, and this is true in my life, where I’m like, you know, I’ve already won, I’ve already I’ve already had successes. I’m more successful than I thought I would be. I’ve got some trophies, I’ve got some badges, I’ve got some resources. I’d be disappointed in a life where I now just keep finding ways to win, because we unlock our greatness by working on the hard things. So part of the hunger is to go, what’s the hard thing for me? What’s the thing that takes me to the edge of who I am and what I know and how I how I am in this world. And how do I have that track me open? Because there’s always a future you that is beckoning the present you to step forward and to change and to put things down and to. Embrace some new things, and at the same time, the status quo has a weight and a gravity that keeps pulling us back. We constantly just want to keep tweaking the person we are, rather than going how do you find the thing that takes you to the next the next level? And so that poem captured it for me. You know his greatest goal to be deeply defeated by ever greater things.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  50:25

So you have won, and how are so I’m very curious about what advice would you give to those people who haven’t done the things that you’ve done with your life? They wouldn’t put themselves in the category I’ve already won. Maybe they’re still maybe they’re just even starting out. You know, college grads were five years into their career. They don’t have the trophies, the awards, the badges, the portfolio, the resources, etc. What? What advice do you offer there?

Michael Bungay Stenier  51:01

Well, you know, first of all, always be skeptical of advice coming from old people. I’m like, Take Take this for what it’s worth. I think one of the the hardest questions, one of the most powerful questions. There’s two versions of it. One is what is success, and the other is what’s enough. And you know the answers to that keep changing and evolving, and the more you can sit with them and keep asking that and be skeptical about what the world is is telling you. But look to the people who seem content and contributing. You know, in that book that you quote for the how to begin book, you know, the the idea that there is about setting worthy goals towards that are thrilling and important and daunting, so thrilling, meaning what lights you up, what speaks to who you are, and that’s actually harder to figure out than you might think, because we inherit a bunch of expectations and beliefs around this is what I should be doing. But you know, one of your one of your criteria is what, what is the thing that will set me aflame, or at least get me kind of going? Daunting? Sorry, that thrilling, important. Important for me is, is, how does this contributing to the world? How does it make, how does it give more to the world than it takes, to use a quote from Jacqueline Novogratz, and then daunting is, how does this take me to the edge of who I am so I can keep learning and growing? So I think probably that combination of these things, which is like knowing what’s enough knowing, keep asking yourself what success is, and then keep finding opportunities to do work that is thrilling and important and daunting, that gives you some principles to figure out some interesting stuff and and be be fulfilled,

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  53:00

beautiful. Rules to live by, but not advice. No, no, no, not advice, but beautiful rules to live by. I love that, Michael, I know we’re at the end of our time here. Just real quick. How should people find how could people find out more about the work that you’re doing in the world? Where should they go?

Michael Bungay Stenier  53:18

So the training company is boxer crown. So if you’ve got a huge training corporate budget, and if you don’t want to give it all to Steven, then come and give it to the folks at boxer crayons, we teach managers and leaders to be more coach like change the culture. So driven by curiosity, and then for some of the work that I do with individuals around deepening their skills, but also finding purpose. MBs, dot works is the website for there

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  53:45

beautiful Michael, thank you. Great to see you, my friend.

Michael Bungay Stenier  53:49

Thank you. That was a wonderful conversation. My pleasure. You take care.

Steven Morris / MatterCo.co  53:55 That’s a wrap for this episode of beautiful business. If you’re hungry from war, wisdom and insights, be sure to visit matter consulting@matterco.co that’s matter co.co, there you can sign up for my widely read insights blog. It’s a weekly dose of business inspiration delivered straight to your inbox. And remember, there’s nothing more powerful than a united group of souls ignited in a common cause with love at the core until next time keep building beautifully.